Depois de ver no site do O Globo o ranking publicado pela IFHHS dos clubes de futebol no Mundo - e por conseqüência a classificação dos clubes brasileiros - curioso tentei verificar quais são os critério utilizados para confeccionar tal lista. No site da IFFHS www.iffhs.de achei uma parte da informação, mas achei necessário enviar um mail para ter mais informacoes.
No dia seguinte recebi o seguinte mail do Dr. Dr.Alfredo Pöge que transcrevo nesta pagina:
Mensagem inicial
I was wondering how can a club that doesn’t participate to any major International competition can be ranked. For those who participate on a National tournament (ratio of 3 to 1 +/- 75%) achieve a higher ranking while being classed on the same tournament on the lower places…
The example of this matter is the classement of Botafogo FR which was defeated on the semifinals of the Copa Brasil in 2008, and finished the Brasil Nacional in 7th place??
Thanks in Advance
Adriano Amaral
A resposta
Dear Sir ,
SC Corinthians São Paulo did play in 2008 in the Serie B (II. Division) and could not collected points and regional competition (Campeonato Paulista) will not take into consideration. Please read our rules of the determination in the same chapter. Present your club has place 1316 (with 18 points).
Regards
Dr.Alfredo Pöge
Minha resposta ,
Dear M. Poge,
Thank you for your answer. Unfortunately my club is not Corinthians S.C. and it's now classed in the 144 position CR Flamengo, which has more wins and draws in the National Championship, finished in the 5th position, was on the Libertadores Cup and eliminated on the 16th round (which cup Botafogo did not participate), and could not participate of the Brazil Cup since the CBF does not allow the clubs who are participating on the Libertadores to play in this Cup. So following the rules all the points acquired by Flamengo would be higher that those of Botafogo, since the tournaments played were higher on your scale:
Copa Libertadores: 14 - 7 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat Copa
Sudamericana: 12 - 6 - 0 points for win - draw - defeat
In Brazil, teams who participated in the Copa Libertadores are excluded by the Confederação Brasileira de Futebol from playing in the Copa do Brasil. As a result of these changes, the old 2:1 ratio of national championship to national cup competition no longer corresponds with the reality. Thus, beginning with the 2006 season respectively 2006/07 season, a ratio of 3:1 will be used for national championship (75%) and national cup competition (25%). Therefore, teams from the strongest leagues (Group 4) will receive 12 points each for the last four rounds, those from the second-strongest leagues 8, those from the third-strongest leagues 5, and those from the weakest leagues (Group 1) 2.5 points. All other details not will be changed.
Regards
Adriano Amaral.
Herr Poge,
Dear Sir ,
These facts are known us - but the world (and also not IFFHS) can fix rules after some few Brazilian clubs or after a wrong decision of the CBF. All Brazilian clubs should have the right to take part in the Brazilian Cup and the right have not take part in regional competitions (as Campeonato Carioca, Campeonato Paulista etc.). The world of the football has developed and the Brazlian clubs must fight for this right.
Sorry, but you have a wrong idea.
Regards
Dr.Alfredo Pöge
de novo o chato,
Adriano Amaral schrieb:
Herr Poge,
Thank you kindly for your answer, following your explanation I can see that the context used to compute the points is more or less the one following the European situation, in which a few privilege clubs take part of a A series or B series championships. Since the number of clubs in certain European countries is lesser than the 1st and 2nd division clubs in the State of Rio de Janeiro is a tad bit preposterous your affirmation to fight for its right to not play the regional tournaments. If we compare the Paulista side, well you can take both French and Belgian cup together. Nerveless, maybe I have the wrong idea, but as long as Brazil is a cellar of talents for your European clubs and National teams and as long those players are growing from clubs like Sao Cristovao (Reinaldo), Flamengo (Zico, Junior, Jorginho, Julio Cesar), Vasco (Juninho -Lyon), in my humble opinion who is not develloping as fast as us on the quality and quantity of players, are the European Countries. I Agree that football is growing and changing since it's early years, but I think you vision of devellopment is not realistic of a country that can hold your continent several times.
Glad to see my idea differs from yours, and to see how your statistics are good only using the european point of view. By the way, Herr Poge, we fight for the the right everytime any of those small clubs enter the pitch of a regional tournament, because they know they're playing against the best, with no or little foreigners, and it's a showcase for those young guns that will probably immigrate to europe, become Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Croate and will defend an European country so much in need of good players with heart and skill.
Have a wonderful day, and again thank you for the enlightenment on your organization.
Adriano Amaral
Herr Poge,
Dear Sir ,
We received always again information that we would be the only federation which is total neutral and not preferred Europe. Also we have monthly millions PIs from 180 countries and in the last months the most from Brazil !! You represent with your idea a very little minority with not suitable facts. Also you should take into consideration our four groups of performance!
Regards
Dr.Alfredo Pöge
de novo...
Adriano Amaral schrieb:
Herr Pöge,
Again thank you for your answer, like mentioned before we have a different point of view basically because we've been exposed to different realities. Again the reality you face in Europe that is not Brazil's one, furthermore you're certainly right to assess my condition as being part of a "minority without suitable facts", and contrary to your belief I've took in consideration all your groups of performance and my questioning was based on your scales. Since you were not able to
answer a simple question that could explain how did you achieve the total tally of points for the specific club - considering the matches, final standings etc... - makes me think (and this is probably shared by several persons) you yourself is not a very aware of the empirical calculus used to achieve the ranking. Therefore, this is also my humble opinion and understanding, most
clubs outside Europe will be penalized since the number of competitions both on a National and Continental level are lesser than in Europe. Anyway we still have in direct confrontation the true
portrait, since South American Clubs have defeated 25 X 21 (including Intercontinental Cups and World Club Cups) their European counterparts.
Anyway, I truly appreciate your time and the explanations of how you achieve your ranking.
Have a wonderful day.
Adriano Amaral
Resposta
Dear Sir ,
Still a last fact - in South America can each top club take part on 2 international competitions (Copa Libertadores & Copa Sudamericana), but in Europe not !! And we have 200 countries in the world and extreme many different details in the national competitions - following we must have a clear line worldwide obliging. So simple - as you think - it is not.
Regards
Dr.Alfredo Pöge
E a minha ultima resposta
Herr Pöge,
I apologize but you seem to be somewhat confused. If I understand correctly and I can only say this on the Brazil side, the top 4 clubs are classified to the Libertadores and from the 5th to the 12th they'll play the Sudamericana. Maybe in Paraguay, or some other smaller country they use this possibility but it's not the case in Brazil (and I've just checked nor Argentina, Colombia, Uruguay, Venezuela and Peru). Please you can google this kind of information or contact the Conmebol to more clarification. Also it seems that those who participate on both competition (a minority of countries) are accepted by the Conmebol - therefore you are ruling on an exception instead of the majority. Might be a question of development to be arise to the Conmebol....
Regards
Adriano Amaral
Da pra ver que estão completamente fora da realidade mundial, tanto quanto o que é valido como torneio ou o que não é. Para eles só vale nacional, continental ou mundial, pois só são os tipos de torneios existentes na maioria dos paises Europeus (por falta de clubes). Talvez tenham razão, mas no caso do Brasil seria uma grande perda se não existisse mais os campeonatos regionais...
